*** This transcript is partly AI-generated and will contain errors***

Introduction and Setting the Stage

[00:00:00] Munir Adam: Welcome back to Primary Care UK Let's Learn Together. It's Munir Adam here, of course, and this is episode 49. Now regardless of your gender, let me ask you this. What do you think about this world, and well, let's focus on the UK, being cut out for women as far as work, life, and as far as life in general is concerned?

[00:00:27] What do you think about that? Some people out there say, or have said many times, it's a man's world. But actually, so much has been changing over the last couple of hundred years or so. And does all of this matter? I mean, it's just an academic discussion and a theoretical question. Or is it relevant? Does the world out there align well with the needs of being a woman. 

[00:00:51] And if you happen to be a woman and this resonates with you, well, why is it? And who can you talk to about this? Well, I was speaking to a GP colleague of mine, and she introduced the concept of women's circles. What on earth is that, I thought. She explained it to me briefly, and as I was listening, I thought, you know what, even as a man, it's interesting to know about this, but this is something that women really need to know about, and many will probably want to find out access and benefit from. So why not cover it on a podcast? 

[00:01:20] And so I hand you over to Emma Borders from the Primary Care UK team as she interviews Dr. Asha Ashokan who is a Women's Circles Facilitator and will enlighten you. Stay tuned.

Exploring Women's Circles

[00:01:45] Emma Borders: Hi there, welcome to the podcast. So today we're going to be talking about women's circles, which if the listeners are anything like me, they may not have heard of. 

[00:01:54] Asha Ashokan: Thank you for having me on Emma. I'm Asha. I'm a GP. I work in London as a clinical leader, very busy practice. And in my spare time, I enjoy hosting women's circles, which I hope I can share some insights with you on this podcast today.

[00:02:11] Emma Borders: Perfect. So I think it's probably a really good place to start by just talking about what exactly is a woman's circle. 

[00:02:17] Asha Ashokan: A women's circle can take many shapes and forms. It's loosely a gathering of women in a safe space of the choosing of the facilitator of the circle, whoever that might be. And it can take many forms.

[00:02:32] It can happen in someone's home. It can take place in a church hall, it can take place in a forest or a tent, anywhere really, but it's an intentional gathering of women who join together to share their experiences and learn from each other in a safe and supportive environment. Usually a circle holder, the person who facilitates and organizes the circle, sends out the invitations.

[00:03:01] Finds a location to host the circle and they facilitate the meeting and help things move smoothly. 

Personal Journey into Women's Circles

[00:03:09] Emma Borders: Can I just go a little off piece and ask, um, how exactly you got into women's circles? Like, how, how did that come about? Where did your interest in it come from? 

[00:03:18] Asha Ashokan: I think it's about a multifaceted thing, really, when it comes to my interest in women's circles.

[00:03:23] I've always had a special interest in women's health. As a GP, that's one of the areas that has always kind of interested me. Being a mother, being a daughter, being a sister, being a wife, I, I feel like I played many different roles as a woman. And I've always found it so interesting how the interplay between community, society, physical health, mental health, ancestral health, our ancestry even can affect the way a woman functions in the world and how it can have such a big impact on mental health in particular.

[00:04:03] So I've always been interested in women's health in general and women's circles, I kind of fell into women's circle hosting mainly from reading various different literature, different books on anthropology, really. I've always been really interested in the evolution of humans and learning from our ancestors, been interested in how the changes of the modern world and the world we live in are having such a big impact on our health.

[00:04:33] And I think working as a GP, I see so many women's health problems. ranging from menstrual irregularities to pelvic pain to infertility to postnatal depression, PMS, so many symptoms that I'm starting to feel that actually so much of this is a deeper, deeper underlying problem, possibly with the way we're living our lives at the moment.

[00:05:01] So this led me to read a lot about ancient cultures and how women's lives were so different all across the world, if you look back, you know, more than 200 years. And I stumbled across this concept of women's circles as I was reading some of these texts and books. And as an offshoot, I ordered this book, book about women's circles. I thought I'll just have a read and see what, what they're about. I just had a general interest and I read a lot. So, uh, I just bought this book and, and I read it. And, um, and immediately I was just, it was almost like an impulsion. I need to host one. I need to do, I need to do this.

[00:05:39] It was such a, an engrossing book and it was beautiful. Beautifully illustrated and it just drew me in. I just thought I need to do this. I have to find the time to do this. And that was just a few short months ago. Actually, it was earlier this year that I actually read that book. And immediately I was like, I desperately want to host one now.

[00:05:58] So I went off into my community, sent out the messages and put up some posters here and there. And there, there were, we just had loads of women turning up and wanting to be involved. 

The Rise and Impact of Women's Circles

[00:06:09] Emma Borders: Oh, I guess that leads quite nicely then on to the women's circles. do seem to be gaining popularity. So why do you think that is, you being one of the people it's gaining popularity with?

[00:06:19] Asha Ashokan: Yeah, I mean when I was researching women's circles, just looking to see if I could go to one just to test it out really, um, I found quite a few in East London. None in my specific area, but there were quite a few all over London, actually. And lots of events on events, websites like events, brides and Facebook, lots of them is here to be kind of propping up everywhere.

[00:06:42] So I thought, Oh, well, there's definitely some interest in this. And I think part of that is possibly because of the way we live and work and exist in the world now, there are. Fewer and fewer spaces for so many different people, actually fewer and fewer spaces for young people, for women, for men, and you know, with your LGBT, whatever your, your background, I think there are just fewer and fewer spaces where people can naturally meet in an environment that's purely for them and purely a, a nonjudgmental space where the whole, the whole Premises to learn from each other and to just exist and spend time together and it's not kind of structured around productivity or upskilling or exercising or learning, uh, you know, a new sport as I think there's plenty of activities available for, for everyone, especially women.

[00:07:37] I myself have been part of kind of women's kickboxing classes and women's exercise boot camps and all sorts of things. And they're wonderful. They're really great spaces. By I feel that so many people that I come across, whether personally or professionally, as women, we're missing that community of women from different ages and different backgrounds who are still part of the community and not necessarily our own families.

[00:08:04] We're missing those opportunities to meet and learn from each other and share our experiences. Yeah. So I think that's why they appear to be so popular. I think there is that kind of need for women to meet with other women and life is busy and being a parent or, you know, being a carer or working, living in a city, et cetera.

[00:08:25] Those, opportunities are few and far between and even if you're lucky enough to have lots of good female friends, family members living nearby, it can still be very difficult to have those quiet moments with each other and often it's, you know, let's go out to eat or let's do this activity or let's You know, we're always trying to optimize on our free time and our social time and, and sometimes we just need to exist and we just need to be together for a while.

[00:08:52] So I think there is a demand for that and it's nice to have one available for me to use as well. 

[00:08:57] Emma Borders: I think when you were saying all that it just made me think of this one friend we met at this class we went to and then from then on we would only really meet at this class and actually I think both of us really just in the end just wanted to meet to chat.

[00:09:09] Or like, because we both have kids of similar age and all that sort of thing. And actually the class we were at seemed to just really get in the way of us doing that. And now in hindsight, I'm a bit like, why didn't we just meet to just meet? The women's 

[00:09:20] Asha Ashokan: circle, yeah, just meet to meet, yes. And not actually have to have 

[00:09:24] Emma Borders: a purpose.

[00:09:24] And I suppose that's what you're saying, isn't it? You know, you don't have to be having a drink, having a meal, having, you know, an exercise class, like you could just meet to do that sort of connectedness. That being the point, I suppose. 

[00:09:36] Asha Ashokan: Exactly. 

[00:09:37] Emma Borders: Yeah, so for someone who's never actually been to a women's circle, what can they expect then?

What to expect from a women's circle

[00:09:42] Asha Ashokan: I think it really depends on the circle holder or the facilitator, what their energy is and what they want to bring to the circle. So some women's circles are a lot more kind of spiritual. spiritual focused. So that may be an interest of the facilitator. Um, other circles may be more to do with helping new mums, for example.

[00:10:07] So I think a lot of it depends on the facilitator and what they want to craft in their women's circle. But generally, loosely speaking, most women's circles have a unifying thread of creating a safe, calm and quiet space for exist together and speak of their own experiences in their own feelings and be given a chance to be listened to.

[00:10:35] So most women's circles do have a sharing circle element. So this loosely is an exercise where Sitting in a circle, we go around the circle one at a time and each woman is given usually a fixed amount of time to speak about anything that comes to them, but it has to loosely be about them rather than speaking about other people or your workplace or, you know, things going on in the news, etc. an opportunity to speak about them and their experiences. And it's usually a timed amount of time that a woman will speak on, on her experiences. And then the rest of the circle just sits and quietly observes. There's no advice giving. There's no displays of empathy, there's no kind of hugging and hand holding or anything like that.

[00:11:33] Everyone else in the circle is there to just hold the space and allow whatever comes up for that individual woman to come into the circle and there's no response or reaction to it. It just is. And then each person takes it in turn to have their moment, to release something into the circle. Um, I think this is a really important exercise, especially for me and for, I'm sure many women, when we do gather with our friends, often we do automatically go into this role of, you know, listening to them.

[00:12:05] telling us about the XYZ problem and we have this kind of urge to be like, Oh, I know. I totally understand. Oh my God, that's so terrible. Oh, let me try and help you. Oh, let me give you some advice. Let me suggest this. Have you tried this? Yes. Try and fix it. And I think actually, yes, it all comes from a good place, but it can actually, Slow people in their journey to healing to whenever you try to share something or share a burden having someone else give you advice or make suggestions or Tell you not to feel that way or you shouldn't feel like that.

[00:12:43] That's you know, that's not your fault, etc All of those things although they're well meaning can sometimes really reduce a person's ability to To just process their feelings and let things out and actually come to their own enlightenment, which is something that, you know, I think we, we possibly all are guilty of.

[00:13:04] Me as a doctor, you know, I'd have to stop myself all the time. And actually it's helped me to actually hold space for my patients. in a more supportive way instead of jumping in the way. Have you tried this? Have you tried that? So that skill is also important. And so even though the rest of us may be sitting in silence, I think it's a really good opportunity for us to practice that deep listening, that kind of deep connection and empathy and not feel the pressure to solve someone's problem either.

[00:13:33] Emma Borders: I think that's a really uh, there's such a parallel there with like how we should be moving like you mentioned with with general practice or this idea of health coaching isn't it like this actually actively just listening to people and hearing them and you know trying to just help them to sort of find their own solutions to the problems not constantly trying to fix people because it's a lot more powerful when people are able to do that isn't it.

Understanding Cyclical Living

[00:13:55] Emma Borders: What is cyclical living then? Because I, I've never heard of this, this phrase, but I feel like it's gonna change my life when you tell me. Ha ha 

[00:14:03] Asha Ashokan: ha ha ha! Yes, it may, it may well do, because it's definitely changed my life. So again, kind of stemming from my interest in women's health, I, I used to come at it from such a medical and scientific viewpoint, you know, menstrual irregularities, periods, fertility, oestrogen, progesterone, all of these things, the amount of exams and studying and extra diplomas and things that I've done on this topic.

[00:14:29] And it still felt inadequate. It still felt like I was missing a a much bigger piece of the problem. It just felt like we just weren't getting to the crux of it. And that obviously led me to look at, you know, alternative medicines and ancestral medicines and looking back at kind of where my family originate from Southern India and actually speaking to older relatives and people and, and understanding some of what their solutions were for some of our most common gynecological problems.

[00:15:02] And then just, opening up my kind of window of thinking a little bit more and looking at various books that kept mentioning this theme of kind of cyclical living, living in sync with the moon. And when you first read it, you kind of think, well, this is a bit wishy washy and what's, what's all this, you know, moon cycles and things.

[00:15:21] It's all sounds very hippie ish, but actually when you dig deep down to The theories of cyclical living, it suddenly completely makes sense. So the whole world that we live in at the moment, the modern world that we live in, pretty much runs on a 24 hour schedule. Workplaces, schools, everything is running on our 24 hour schedule.

[00:15:43] And it's pretty much copy and paste the same 24 hour schedule. all throughout the year. And this is great if your body is designed to live this way. And I hate to bring, bring gender into this, but the male hormonal pattern, their biology with their predominant hormone testosterone really beautifully fits that 24 hour cycle.

[00:16:06] Men tend to have a big surge of testosterone early on in the morning, making them very productive. Morning meetings, Getting to the gym in the morning, getting all of the, all of that kind of work routine done quite early really suits their hormonal balance, actually. So, and then as the day wears on, it slumps down a little bit, you may get a little surge in the, in the afternoon, and then right down to the evening, it kind of tails off naturally with the day.

[00:16:34] Women's hormonal cycles are completely different. There are obviously some hormones that both men and women have that do follow a 24 hour cycle, including cortisol. But in terms of the reproductive hormones that women produce, progesterone, estrogen, luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, the patterns span over a month, a menstrual cycle.

[00:16:58] So you'll have some parts of the month where Estrogen is surging and things are wonderful and everyone's got plenty of energy and then that's in the follicular part of the cycle, which generally is from the first day of your period to the day of ovulation, roughly kind of middle of the month. So, you know, day 14 to 21, et cetera.

[00:17:19] So there's this general increase of estrogen. You may find that energy levels are increasing in that kind of phase of your monthly cycle if you have monthly cycles and then. at ovulation, tons of energy for socializing. Life is great. Everything's wonderful. And then pretty soon after ovulation, you have a decline in oestrogen and an increase in, in progesterone.

[00:17:46] And there are shifts in the FSH and LH levels as well, which then cause other imbalances. So, you know, feeling a little bit more tired, there could be bloating, water retention. Disruption in sleep and PMS symptoms, mood symptoms. You may want to socialize less. You may want to speak less in meetings. You may want to not have that conversation with your, your colleague or line manager in this phase.

[00:18:14] So our cycles really vary. No two days are actually the same throughout the cycle. And I feel that as so many women. experience this acutely, especially in the workplace or in the home or wherever you are. You just have some days where you're like, I can't do what I did last week. I don't know why I'm just exhausted.

[00:18:34] I'm tired. And instead of trying to fight daily to fit yourself into this 24 hour routine. That doesn't really serve us very well. We could try to adopt a more cyclical way of living. Meaning, practically speaking, if you are able to, and you have control of your diary, you may want to front load more of your meetings and more kind of sociable activities.

[00:19:00] Activities to your follicular phase of your cycle. You may want to plan your date night with your partner around the regulatory phase when you're more likely to be having fun and having the energy to go out for dinner. You may want to just have pajama days and not book in too many social activities and, and parties and things during the final phase of the monthly cycle, and living more in tune with that.

[00:19:25] you know, maybe booking in more yoga sessions instead of the bootcamp. Uh, and that's in that phase. So I've started to live a little bit more in tune with those cycles and it definitely made me feel a lot better within myself and judge myself less harshly. So that's the crux of cyclic living. I could talk about it for hours, but yes, honoring your natural cycles as a woman and not feeling the pressure to be on this 24 hour wheel that we're on.

[00:19:53] Emma Borders: Yeah, and do you know what? Sometimes you just take someone and point it out, doesn't it? Because I'm definitely one of those people who I know exactly where I am in my cycle. I don't track my cycle, but I know exactly where I am based on my mood and my energy levels and, and all of that sort of stuff. And now you've just said that, I'm like, why wouldn't I have just like scheduled training or like the bits that I have to do for those times of the month and things?

[00:20:13] Cause I do have some, what? control of my calendar. And you think, why have I never thought to do that? Yes. Because, um, once you say it, it does seem like, well, yeah, that does seem like if you're able to do that, that would be great. 

[00:20:25] Asha Ashokan: Yes. And, and it, and it also, it links in with the, the kind of idea of women's circles and the origins, possibly, of women's circles historically. various kind of parts of the world in prehistoric times, whether it's South American cultures or African cultures, Indian, even in Judaism and in Celtic cultures, when we were living in tribes, when we were living in villages, women often had synchronized menstrual cycles. So the reproductive age women of the village would generally all be menstruating for the same week of the month and there's some archaeological evidence of women gathering and performing certain kind of menstrual rituals during that time of the month.

[00:21:08] They would retreat often into caves or into tents or the woods and they would be kind of almost exempt from The normal day to day toil of the village and the elder women would take over those responsibilities or the men would chip in more and the menstruating women would generally retreat and spend their time being creative or meditating or praying or singing or spending time together basically.

[00:21:36] So there is some evidence of this actually being a practice in many parts of the world in the prehistoric times. And I just think that's wonderful. I just think, wow, that. Wouldn't that be great? And I think living in that way possibly allowed women's menstrual cycles to sink. So now the number of women that I see who have irregular cycles and PCOS and all sorts of kind of cycle related problems, I wonder whether part of that is just the way we're living in, you know, in 2. 4 children in a house with a partner or, you know, even people who are single or whatever. We're not. living in those communities with lots and lots of women around us, and we're not spending that time with other women. So maybe that's why some people's menstrual cycles are difficult to regulate. I don't know, but it seems to me that it's a telltale sign that we're just not spending enough time with other women.

[00:22:33] So yeah. 

The Importance of Female Community

[00:22:33] Emma Borders: I think that leads really nicely into sort of the question of why is having this female community so important to women's sort of mental and physical health then? 

[00:22:42] Asha Ashokan: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think the number of young women that I see who, you know, have left their family home and they've moved to London, make a new life.

[00:22:53] And they've left their families, have left their sisters, they've left their friends and mums and they come to London. And one of the first things they campaign of is my periods all over the place. Everything's gone, gone weird. I'm not menstruating properly. And yes, some of it may be lifestyle related, but I do wonder whether it's that isolation.

[00:23:11] Whether it's, especially now people working from home, you're not in an office with other women, your cycles are probably doing their own thing now, and I do think that we are supposed to be living kind of almost communally with each other. So what kind of um, immersions and themes tend to come up during these circles then?

[00:23:29] Hosting the circles has been one of the most, enlightening and most wonderful and beautiful things that I've ever been involved in. And I honestly feel that they almost feel like they have more impact than most of my consultations in general practice, which is saying something and how I, how I run my circles generally follow a loose template of we have this beautiful room in our community which is our local cricket club house and they've kindly let me use the space and every month we meet in there and turn all the lights off, the shutters are down, it's pitch black and we light some candles in the middle.

[00:24:08] And we sit around on floor cushions or yoga mats in a circle. It's all very soothing. We play some very soothing music in the background, start off with the circle. We do some kind of deep breathing exercises, a little bit of meditation, and generally a visualization exercise. where we visualize different things each time.

[00:24:28] So I will talk through the guided visualization while everyone else is sitting with their eyes closed. The visualization can take any form, really. For example, one of the earlier ones was a visualization taking us through a journey to meet our higher selves. So this is our inner wise woman, our inner knowledgeable person. person that we carry with us, but that we sometimes lose touch with. So this visualization was trying to reconnect to that kind of identity. Um, the visualizations take about 10 minutes. Another visualization was trying to meet our child selves. So We spend a bit of time building a picture in our brain, trying to meet ourselves as children.

[00:25:11] So these visualizations can evoke all sorts of kind of memories or emotions or thoughts as you go through them. And then straight after the visualization exercise, we open up our sharing circle where each woman has roughly three and a half minutes to share whatever's come to her during the session. Um, sometimes people will talk about what they experienced during the visualization.

[00:25:33] Other times people will talk about. Something else that has been on their mind recently, and sometimes people just sit in silence and choose to just sit there, often crying, releasing tears, and that's absolutely fine and acceptable as well, but the themes that come up really vary. But it's been amazing having women of different ages.

[00:25:56] We've got some attendees who are in their kind of early 20s, and we've had other attendees who are in their kind of mid to late 60s. And it's fascinating to hear how similar these women of different ages often look. Come up with the same themes. Themes of feeling lost, for example, feeling alone or feeling inadequate. Feeling over overburdened.

[00:26:22] Yeah, so many things can come up, but it, it's amazing to see how it doesn't matter your age almost. This similar themes come up in the women's circles, and there are themes that. often chime with everyone. So someone may bring up something related to their childhood or their main relationship, etc.

[00:26:43] Or someone may bring up something about body image. And at the end of the sharing circle, we generally have like an open discussion where we talk about general themes as a group. In those discussions, the number of women that say, you know, I, I really identify with that, or I've, I've felt exactly the same way.

[00:27:00] And I thought it was me. And just that sharing of those kinds of feelings that usually we just carry around in ourselves and in our heads, letting it out, you know, in a soothing, calm space and then having other people say, you know what? I know how you feel and that can help people feel so much less burdened by their internal struggles.

[00:27:23] And I've had so many, so many of the attendees, almost all of them who've come to the sessions have messaged me afterwards saying, Oh my God, I feel so much lighter today. Oh my God, this was so good. I really needed that. And the themes are really varied, but so much chimes with many women, I feel, so I think that's, that's the beauty of it.

[00:27:42] So, lots of different themes. 

[00:27:44] Emma Borders: Yeah, anything and everything, and I guess a lot of us are relatable. Um, I guess the question I had is, listening to all of this, are sort of, I guess, employers or people in healthcare settings recommending the use of women's circles or starting to incorporate women's circles into this sphere?

[00:28:02] Asha Ashokan: Yeah. Not that I am aware of at this stage. I work with a brilliant social prescriber, who I have spoken to about my women's circle sessions. Obviously, I'm running them for my local community. So there aren't any patients in attendance. And I don't really work anywhere near where, where I live. So there's a demarcation there.

[00:28:20] But my social prescriber, she was very interested in possibly running a women's circle for victims of domestic violence that she supported, um, in our practice or other demographics of women as well. So she was really interested in this and I think she'd be great at it. I think the risk though, is that we over medicalize it and we over protocolize it.

[00:28:45] Yeah. And I think maybe it's not something. that is going to fit completely with general practice and the way it's delivered at the moment. I would love to see a world where it is part of general practice delivering kind of community based therapies and, and spaces to help our patients. But I think at the moment, very much reliant on the, the interest of the facilitator and of, you know, whoever's holding the circle.

[00:29:15] But as an employer, I think the NHS should consider having kind of similar practices for their employees, whether it's male, female, whatever. I think it would be nice to see this type of model recreated in the workplaces. I don't know how that would look in, in real life. You kind of may miss some of the kind of magic of it when it's in the workplace.

[00:29:39] I don't know. 

[00:29:40] Emma Borders: I don't know. Yeah. You don't want people to just become about a work thing, I suppose. Do you? Yeah. You know, I suppose the beauty of it is it can be anything and everything, anything and, and the same with the people, people from all different walks of life. But I wonder whether it could just be that the, because he's split like a GP surgery, hosts, you know that for an area, isn't it? You know, they're patients. So whether or not they just provide the space and encourage a social prescriber to be the facilitator to open it 

[00:30:07] Asha Ashokan: up 

[00:30:07] Emma Borders: to be advertised, not just to say patients who think need it, but anybody for anyone in that community. Yeah, so it wasn't, um, you know, just people have medical issues or anything like that.

[00:30:17] Yeah, anyone in that community is like recognition that your GP surgery is a bit of a hub. I mean, and that's what they're talking about more, isn't it? GP surgery to become more like, as you just mentioned, to facilitate that sort of thing. You know, they have all these patients, um, contact details and ability to send out messages to say we're, you know, hosting a woman's circle on Thursday afternoons 

[00:30:40] Asha Ashokan: in this 

[00:30:40] Emma Borders: space.

[00:30:40] But yeah, I don't know. It'd be interesting. 

[00:30:42] Asha Ashokan: Yeah, I think, I think it's definitely something that the social prescribing and care coordinating kind of colleagues. would probably be best suited for. But yeah, I suppose anyone could run it really, but 

[00:30:53] Emma Borders: yeah. Well yeah, that was the next question, like who, how do you, because it sounds like you sort of just did a lot of reading around this and then you had a passion for it, started doing it.

[00:31:01] I suppose, is that the routine? If you, if you, people will listen to this and think, oh I'd quite like to set up a one circle. Is that all you need to do? Just, just go for it. 

[00:31:10] Asha Ashokan: Yeah, but there are pretty much zero barriers to entry. Anyone can do it. Um, as to how well you do it, that's really dependent on you and the space you're trying to create.

[00:31:20] If you're someone who is looking to create a really calm, soothing, safe space for other women in your community, and that's your like intention, I think it will naturally come out when you host your circles. There are lots of resources online and in books about how to kind of set them up and, you know, what kind of themes and how, how to structure them.

[00:31:41] So there's lots of information available, but there's nothing stopping anyone. out there to just set one up in their local community. I think the, the concern that some people, especially medics, uh, and people, yeah, from a, from a medical background may have is, Oh, what about the safeguarding? And what about the mental health aspect?

[00:31:59] And is someone qualified enough to be discussing these topics in a women's circle? And even though, um, some, You know, really quite traumatizing things that people have gone through having brought up in women's circles. The space that's there is actually quite, it's quite prescribed in some ways because you have a timed amount of time.

[00:32:21] It's not therapy. And I always say before I start the sessions that, you know, if anyone is struggling with their mental health, this is not the answer for you. But you really should speak to a professional about anything that's really concerning you. And I think if you have those caveats and you explain to people this is not going to solve your life and this is not going to treat significant mental health problems, this is a community exercise of reconnecting to people, and it's not therapy, then, then I think that's one way to reduce the anxiety of it as a facilitator, because you could set up a knitting circle and it would be exactly the same. 

[00:32:57] Emma Borders: Yeah, I think that that excuse for like not doing things sometimes sort of, you know, I do some safeguarding sort of training and it's that sort of thing of like, I don't want to ask the difficult question because I opened up a can of worms and what if there's a problem, but well, you know, it's better, it's better that it comes out somewhere or that that person has some, you know, it's better.

[00:33:15] Not that you're going to have to necessarily solve their problem right there and then or whatever but what's the alternative that they don't come to this women's circle and they're just alone in their problem and they don't share anything with anyone and yeah, fear of, fear of disclosure I think is a problem sometimes that we need to maybe try and get over a little, a little bit.

[00:33:33] Asha Ashokan: Yes, yeah. 

[00:33:35] Emma Borders: Because if that's going to stop you from doing positive things, then that's a shame, isn't it? 

[00:33:39] Asha Ashokan: And I think, um, most people who do facilitate and run the circles will have some idea of when someone is really needing extra support. I think we all as humans are able to do that. I don't, I don't think we need to kind of completely kind of professionalize and pathologize normal kind of human interactions and emotions.

[00:33:59] If you were to meet a friend and they disclose something to you, how would you? respond. You don't have to do a safeguarding referral. But yeah, so I think part of that is just having the confidence, you know, if you are from a clinical background, and you've had experience with patients and safeguarding, etc, that just adds to it, really, it shouldn't kind of be a barrier.

[00:34:19] And it shouldn't make you feel more nervous to run a community group. 

[00:34:23] Emma Borders: Yeah, I completely agree. Well, I think the final thing I really wanted to ask and it leads on nicely from that is, um, How has being a Circle Facilitator changed you personally then? 

[00:34:33] Asha Ashokan: I'm still a work in progress in many, many ways, but, uh, but being a Circle Facilitator has definitely improved my deep listening skills beyond measure, I believe.

[00:34:44] And it's not just in the workplace with my patients, but with my family, with my children, with my parents. Uh, with my husband, I am so much better, uh, as a listener since facilitating the circles. And, and I think it's genuinely improved some of my relationships. I think being a bit of a know it all, and I think many GPs may put their hand up a little bit and say, yeah, we, we are possibly quick to give advice and quick to, to find a solution.

[00:35:11] Oh, well, you should do this. That's the answer. I have really changed in that aspect. I spend a lot more time holding space for people. That's my thing now, holding space for people. And so that's really helped. And it's also helped me feel more confident to look at aspects of my life and my experiences.

[00:35:31] And, and instead of carrying them around with me, Actually allowing me to just be like, you know what, this has really upset me, or this is, this is what I'm thinking about at the moment, and just releasing it. Because I take part in the circle, obviously, you have to as a facilitator, and releasing something each month in a group of supportive women has actually helped me feel a lot lighter, uh, and helped me feel a lot less burdened, and I can focus on actually living and having fun.

[00:35:58] Rather than, Oh, I'm really upset about this. And I'm worried about this and all that's happened. And I've got, I've got a place where I could just let it out and move on. Uh, which is great. So it's, it's helped me in so many ways. And, and I really hope more and more people set up women's circles or just join a women's circle, give one a try, because I think they could be really a positive thing to add into your, your life.

[00:36:25] And I hope you join one Emma. Yeah, I was going to say, I'd love to go. 

[00:36:29] Emma Borders: Well, the thing is, there's never anything, I'm living in Cornwall, there's never anything in Cornwall, so I'll go look, but um, I used to live in London, and yeah, there's always loads of stuff and places you can find for things, but Cornwall's a bit, um, very different.

[00:36:42] I'm sure 

[00:36:43] Asha Ashokan: you'll have, I'm sure you'll, if you put up a little post somewhere, or in a coffee shop, a little flyer, I'm sure you'll get people contacting you. 

[00:36:52] Emma Borders: I'll have a look. I'll have a look. All right. Well, it's been really interesting. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me on the podcast about women's circles.

[00:36:59] Asha Ashokan: Thank you so much, Emma. Thanks for having me. Take care. Bye. Bye.